Worried...

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   OK, I'm still in my 30 day money back purchase period for the XtremeToolkit Pro 8.51 and I'm worried about a few things...

1) Seriously, where's the documentation?
      XTPCurrentSystemTheme GetCurrentSystemTheme();

      Description

        This is GetCurrentSystemTheme, a member of class CXTPDrawHelpers.
      Class

        CXTPDrawHelpers
      Links

        CXTPDrawHelpers

For $600 I expected more than this. Like, way more. Like, I at least expected documentation that explained what the member functions and variables do for the entire library! This situation is misleading because not only do you advertise FULL DOCUMENTATION, the product is at version 8.5 and one would assume that by this version it would be fully documented...

2) Getting the documentation. Supposing complete documentation is going to be availible someday (hopefully soon!) will it be made freely availible to current owners of the Toolkit Pro? I think that would be a good idea because I think we've already paid for it...

3) Upgrading. So I will have to pay $250 a year just to get new versions of the Toolkit Pro, even if there are only minor changes - or will you also offer upgrade packages to be purchased by users as they deem them necessary? What I'm trying to ask is: When Toolkit Pro v10 comes out someday will those of us without subscriptions be able to upgrade without purchasing the whole thing over again?

The library itself is wicked - I really don't want to part with it AT ALL.  I'm not stupid and I can figure out what does what, but it's very frustrating to have to stop and spend all morning parsing the source code in order to figure out what a function does.  I need a few answers before I decide to stick with it, and I thought I'd post this here because I can't imagine there aren't others who feel the same way...

Thanks!

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Matt1 Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Newbie Joined: 06 November 2003 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 9	Post Options Post Reply Quote Matt1 Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Topic: Worried... Posted: 12 November 2003 at 4:38pm
	OK, I'm still in my 30 day money back purchase period for the XtremeToolkit Pro 8.51 and I'm worried about a few things... 1) Seriously, where's the documentation? XTPCurrentSystemTheme GetCurrentSystemTheme(); Description This is GetCurrentSystemTheme, a member of class CXTPDrawHelpers. Class CXTPDrawHelpers Links CXTPDrawHelpers For $600 I expected more than this. Like, way more. Like, I at least expected documentation that explained what the member functions and variables do for the entire library! This situation is misleading because not only do you advertise FULL DOCUMENTATION, the product is at version 8.5 and one would assume that by this version it would be fully documented... 2) Getting the documentation. Supposing complete documentation is going to be availible someday (hopefully soon!) will it be made freely availible to current owners of the Toolkit Pro? I think that would be a good idea because I think we've already paid for it... 3) Upgrading. So I will have to pay $250 a year just to get new versions of the Toolkit Pro, even if there are only minor changes - or will you also offer upgrade packages to be purchased by users as they deem them necessary? What I'm trying to ask is: When Toolkit Pro v10 comes out someday will those of us without subscriptions be able to upgrade without purchasing the whole thing over again? The library itself is wicked - I really don't want to part with it AT ALL. I'm not stupid and I can figure out what does what, but it's very frustrating to have to stop and spend all morning parsing the source code in order to figure out what a function does. I need a few answers before I decide to stick with it, and I thought I'd post this here because I can't imagine there aren't others who feel the same way... Thanks!

kelvincannon Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Groupie Joined: 12 November 2003 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 16	Post Options Post Reply Quote kelvincannon Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 13 November 2003 at 3:59pm
	I agree with Matt1 the toolkit is very good but the documentation is pretty bad. I have 5 programmers about to move over to Toolkit Pro in the next 2 weeks and I am worried it is going to take to long to move. I may even go back to the basic toolkit for the next release of our software. Kelvin

Ark42 Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 20 October 2003 Status: Offline Points: 291	Post Options Post Reply Quote Ark42 Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 14 November 2003 at 1:33am
	I have to agree, the current documentation seems pretty non-existent, and the yearly subscription thing seems kind of bad as well. You should get more then 30 days of free upgrades at least with the basic purchase. Buying support is a lot different the buying upgrades and I dislike how they are tied together.

Russ Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Groupie Joined: 21 September 2003 Location: Russian Federation Status: Offline Points: 28	Post Options Post Reply Quote Russ Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 14 November 2003 at 4:14am
	Does this mean that I am not elegible to get updated version of Xtreme Toolkit Pro 8.51 and I have to pay an extra fees just to get bugs fixed? I can understand that one should pay for new features (like new controls), but paying subscription fees to get bugfixes is rediculous...

kstowell Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Admin Group Joined: 25 January 2003 Location: MIchigan, USA Status: Offline Points: 496	Post Options Post Reply Quote kstowell Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 28 November 2003 at 11:36am
	Hello... We understand that the documentation was lacking in several areas with the v8.51 release. We have overhauled the documentation for v8.60 and are continuing to work to improve upon it. To address other concerns, you will continue to receive bug fixes and enhancements with your support and maintenance subscription. I don't believe that we are doing anything different than other component vendors in regards to bundling support and maintenance into one package. If you have suggestions on how we can further improve upon the current v8.6 help documentation, or have suggestions on how we can improve upon our support and maintenance bundling, please let us know. You can send your suggestion to support@codejock.com or most your comment here. Kind regards, Codejock Support Edited by Administrator

Ark42 Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 20 October 2003 Status: Offline Points: 291	Post Options Post Reply Quote Ark42 Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 28 November 2003 at 12:32pm
	The documentation is a lot better in 8.60. The one thing I have trouble finding is when things like a list of flag values are set using the parent class's SetFlags function and I can't find a link in the help file from the function to the various derived-class flag lists, or from the flag lists and enums to the function that you use them with. Looking at all the samples provided is a good way to tell what flags go with what functions though, and the samples are all very well done. I would suggest to anybody purchasing Codejock to simply look at the price as if it were the base price plus the one year support, because you are going to want the free upgrades. I just purchased 8.60 Xtreme Toolkit Pro + the 1 year support. I have used another company's product in the past, and they gave you a free year of upgrades but only 30 days of support. None of that mattered because I was using their COM product and they absolutely only cared about support and bugfixes for their .NET product. This particular company did use a standard newsgroup for community-based support so it never suffered such long downtimes like this recent 2-week downtime here, but their official staff rarely answered your questions too.

ddyer Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Groupie Joined: 01 December 2003 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 40	Post Options Post Reply Quote ddyer Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 01 December 2003 at 3:19pm
	Even 8.6 is desperate for a good "big picture" user guide. A few tutorials on some of the main classes doesn't cut it. The toolkit is just too big and too advanced from an MFC viewpoint for me (and likely the majority of users) to just up and run with it. Things like "paint managers" and "Base Panes" sound important and useful. Id love to read how using them would make my life better :) Also they need to separate internal classes from public ones. While Im sure CXTPMouseManager does something neat, if its not public don't pollute the public document I have to wade through. Thats the fastest way to get in trouble. I had to learn this the hard way in a previous public library utility company.

Matt1 Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Newbie Joined: 06 November 2003 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 9	Post Options Post Reply Quote Matt1 Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 05 December 2003 at 7:48pm
	I just wanted to state that, although I had/have some concerns about the documentation and the maintenance, Xtreme Toolkit Pro is really fantastic. At this point, less than a month after I created this thread, I think you'd have to shoot me and pry this toolkit from my hands to get it back. Yes, the documentation is lacking, but after using the library for a bit you'll start understanding it, and when you understand it, you can do amazing things. I hope I didn't piss anybody off at Code Jock. With good documentation and perhaps an App Wizard, Xtreme Toolkit Pro could be the entire answer and I'd see no reason for other similar toolkits to even exist. Not that Code Jock needs business advice from me - I'm pretty sure they are aware of the documentation situation - but I have a lot of friends who would LOVE this toolkit but who aren't technical enough to figure it out by reading the source code. I think that when they make it easy to learn and use they will have a HUGE market...

Russ Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Groupie Joined: 21 September 2003 Location: Russian Federation Status: Offline Points: 28	Post Options Post Reply Quote Russ Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 06 December 2003 at 7:02am
	Matt1, I second your opinion on that.. Yesterday I was told (by CodeJock support rep) to import entire Workspace into my project and visual assist.net picked up all the code so it became much easier to understand how it works and what needs to be done to achieve the goal. Also, I would like to say thanks to Oleg and Kirk for their prompt replies to my questions.